nonesensed | How to flirt on the bus without being creepy (Reply)

I've been reading a lot of very interesting articles about sexism this past week. Recommendations:

What strikes me the most is that, as soon as any problem that mostly women suffer (e.g. rape, sexual harassment, etc.) is being discussed, "What About The MEN?!"-comments will show up, like clockwork.

Don't know what those are? They are comments made by people who mean well, but are missing the point of the discussion by a mile.

An example:

This is an old article called Schrödinger's Rapist. Pretty inflammatory title, right? Well, it's about the way women make threat assessments about men who are strangers to them, because women are told from a very young age to watch out for rapists everywhere. Also, most women meet a lot of men who disrespect their personal space and boundaries, which teaches them that a lot of men aren't to be trusted.

These are facts, written down so that men can get an idea about what women go through on a daily basis, as well as a "how to not creep women out and behave like a potential rapist".

One guy - probably a very nice, sane guy - then posted a comment that pretty much boiled down to: "I don't feel comfortable with women thinking about me as a rapist. I'm not one! They shouldn't do that to me, I'm nice!"

….yeah, that guy completely misread the article. It's not about how all women think all men are rapists. It's about how a lot of women are raped, that there's no way to tell a nice person from a rapist at first glance and that all women are told how they must protect themselves from being raped (with the implication that these rapists will be men - young women rarely hear anything about how they should be suspicious of strange women...), which makes it necessary for all women to suspect every strange man of being a potential rapist.

The commenter clearly didn't realize that. Instead he entered the discussion with the attitude that this article was insulting to him. He wished to focus the discussion on how he felt uncomfortable knowing women he might approach in public will think he's a rapist (which isn't what the article said, btw) and how the article should be rewritten so that it'd be less offensive to nice guys.

I have no words.

Another example:

One suggestion in the article is that if a man is out in public and sees a woman he'd like to talk to, talking to her might not be such a great idea all of the time. If she doesn't answer him when he addresses her, that's not an invitation to keep asking her to listen to him. Yeah, she might not have heard him the first time, but she might also be ignoring him because he obviously is ignoring all her "go away"-signals (I will explain what I mean by that, further down).

In response to this, some men said: "But how will I get a date if I can't talk to women on public transportation?" and "You're really limiting the way for guys to meet girls! The human race will die out!"

My first thought when I saw this was: Wow, self-centered much? Also, way to miss the point there.

My second was: Someone really needs to tell these guys the difference between flirting with someone and being creepy as hell.

Now we get to the "How to flirt on the bus without being creepy"-part of this post! These instructions are addressed to men (the many of them who aren't rapists, obviously) who wish to approach a woman they're attracted to, but are unsure on how to do so. Why? Because these are the guys who usually complain that the dating advice of feminists are limiting their chances of getting a date and I'm looking to prove them wrong.

Let's see if I succeed.

Okay, men-looking-to-meet-women, we're on a bus. Or a train. Or waiting for the subway. Or in an elevator. Somewhere public, but still a place a woman can't just leave if she finds you to be creepy. Thus, avoiding being creepy is the main goal. Because you're not. You're a nice person.

You already have the setting working against you. Why? Well, in general (there are of course rare exceptions) women are very used to being bothered and harassed on public transportation. It's very common.

Ask the women close to you (doesn't matter how pretty/young/thin they are) if they've ever had a man bother them on a bus; the chance they'll say yes is about 99%. The chance they'll say it's happened more than once is 99%. The chance they'll say it happens often is also very, very high. And by bother I don't mean asking "What time is it?" or "Can I borrow some money?" - I mean harrass, as in saying and doing creepy things. I'll elaborate further down, when we get to descriptions of creepy behavior.

Thus, because some guys are douchebags, women are extra suspicious of men who address them in places where they can't get away. We're not paranoid or hysterical – we're rightfully suspicious, based on experience.

So, what do you do?

Well, act like a normal, decent human being and you should do fine. And if you are one, everything I say after this point might seem so obvious to you that I come off as talking down to you – which is a good thing! If you haven't considered doing the things I'm going to tell you not to do, you're already doing everything right. Go you!

Still, just to make sure we're on the same page with what constitutes as "decent human behavior", we'll go through the does and don'ts, starting with the very first thing you see about a person, in terms of communication: Body language.

You can obviously see the woman you want to talk to, ergo you can see her body language. Most people can understand body language just as well as spoken language, but to be on the safe side I'll go through the basics with you – because a lot of the creepy vs flirty problems stem from the fact that some people are unable (or unwilling) to read body language.

How does a woman who's looking for someone to talk to (maybe even flirt with) act? That's very important: it's not simply about the fact that you want to talk to a woman, she has to want to talk to you too. This is important.

See, when a man is staring out through a window/listening to music/reading a book/not looking at you/has his eyes closed, that means he's not interested in interacting socially with anyone at the moment. And you know what? It means the same thing when a woman does it.

If the person (woman or man) wants to talk to people, there's signals for that too: looking around, smiling at people, making eye contact repeatedly. Some may be listening to music or reading, but they will have the music turned down low enough to hear someone address them and they'll be looking up from the book occasionally, to see if anyone is interested in talking to them.

In other words, it's rather obvious who'd welcome a conversation and who wouldn't.

The bad thing you can do in this situation, if you're not getting "I want to talk"-signals, is to go talk to her. If you talk to someone when they're signaling "I want to read in peace" or "I'm not interested in a conversation right now", you signal that you couldn't give a fuck about what they want. You signal that your desire to talk to them, trumps their desire to be left alone.

The worst thing you can do is grab her book or pull her headphones out of her ears. Grabbing a stranger's personal affects is never a good idea and a very stupid thing to do, if you're trying to get a date.

In short, ignoring body language is a very douchey thing to do. You will annoy the other person. You will come off as creepy, especially to a woman being addressed by a man.

What do I mean by that last part? Isn't being roped into conversations with, for example, a little old lady just as annoying?

No. The chance that a little old lady will do more than tell you about her grandchildren or medical problems is close to zero. The chance that a random man will want more than just a talk is much higher. Therefore, when you as a man address a woman despite getting "go away"-signals, you get 'possible rapist'-points, because you're acting like a douchebag who doesn't respect boundaries.

Overreaction? No. Because while little old laides more often than not respect the "go away"-signals, most women have to put up with men approaching them against their will, all the time. No matter what we do when we're out in public, there are a lot of (mostly) men who think we want someone to come up and talk with us, despite the fact that we're sending every signal known to human kind that we're not interesting in a conversation right now!

It's annoying and creepy and it won't get you a consensual date. If you do that, please stop it.

"But!" I hear some of you say, "what about the women (and men) who like speaking to strangers on the train/bus/plane, who don't know how to communicate that?! And the shy ones?! They exist too! How can I be sure I'm not missing out on a date, just because some women don't want to talk?"

Oh boy.

It's true there are some people who are shy, yet still wish to talk. Most of them still signal that they wish to talk, just not as loudly. You can still be pretty sure that someone not looking at you means "leave me alone". A few people don't signal "come talk to me" even though they wish to, but they are very few.

If you want to risk annoying someone who wishes to be left alone, on the small chance that they're actually sending the "go away"-signals without meaning to, fine. You're not a rapist just because you talk to someone against their will. But if the other person gets annoyed with you and gives your "Hi!" a very curt, verbal "Go away" or a glare, don't blame that person or call them a "frigid bitch" – you're the one ignoring their signals, so you're the one doing something rude. They don't have to be polite to you.

Also, the chance that you'll get a rude reply, even if you're the one being rude in the first place, is very low. In general women are raised into the belief that they have to be polite to everyone, all the time. Sad, but true.

In summary: If you don't get "come talk to me"-signals, don't go talk to that person. Unless you don't mind annoying people and getting turned down.

But what do you do if there are "come talk to me"-signals? Or if you're just not quite sure (there's of course a continuum from "go away" to "come talk to me")?

That's when you say hi.

Simple, right? Just don't say "hi beautiful", "you look stunning" or something similar to that. Even if you honestly mean it as a compliment, almost no woman will take it as a compliment..

Women get comments about their appearance all the time, positive and negative. All that tells her about you, is that the only reason you're talking to her is because you want to have sex with her. That's not flattering, that's "I don't think of you as a person, but as an ornament for me to look at and possibly have sex with".

Compliments given by strangers mean nothing. Save them for your friends, partners and family, or at least people you've actually interacted with.

When introductions are over, strike up a normal conversation, like with any other person. That's exactly what this woman you're attracted to is – a person, not a subspecies or a mysterious creature of wonder. The moment you forget that, is the moment you turn into a creep.

Now we get more body language, as well as verbal speech to look out for. A person who is comfortable talking to you looks happy and relaxed (you know what that looks like, right?). A person who's uncomfortable doesn't.

But why should she be uncomfortable? She said hi, right? She told you the title of the book she was reading. She acknowledged your existence!

Well, maybe that was all she wanted to do and then go back to being left in peace. Maybe she's just making polite small talk. To find out if she is, all you have to do is listen.

What should you listen for? What she's saying, of course! Is she contributing to the dialogue or is she just nodding and ah-hahing? Is she completely silent? If she's not trying to keep the conversation alive with at least a "Tell me more!", it's not a conversation. It's a monologue.

And if she says "This has been really nice, but I really should get back to reading/need more sleep/have to make a phone call," that's your cue to leave (just like in any other conversation).

When it comes to body language, smiling can actually be a mixed clue. A lot of people smile or laugh when they're nervous or uncomfortable. But telling a nervous smile from a genuine smile isn't all that hard, so don't lie to yourself, even if it hurts to acknowledging the fact that you're making someone uncomfortable.

But let's say the conversation flows effortlessly. Don't take this as a signal that you're on a date. Until you ask her out (or she asks you out), you're not on a date. You're just two people being friendly towards one another and having a good time. She doesn't know you're attracted to her and she hasn't signaled that she's attracted to you either – women can't read minds anymore than you can.

If you feel the conversation is going well enough, you take the big leap. You ask her out. She might even beat you to it!

Be prepared to be turned down. All women will not wish to go on a date with you, no matter how nice and not-creepy you are. Just like you don't want to go on a date with all women in the world, women don't want to go on a date with all men in the world. And not just because some women are lesbians or asexual. The trick is finding someone you're attracted to, who finds you attractive in return. This is not easy.

Yes, that means there's no "one thing you have to do" to make all women fall for you. You can't make yourself attractive to all women. Yes, media lied to you. It's sad, but true. Keep this in mind while you talk to a woman who seems to enjoy your company – just because she's having fun doesn't mean she thinks you're potential dating material.

Take the chance, ask ("I really like you. Do you want to have coffee sometime?" "Would you like to meet again sometime?", etc.) and if she says yes, yay (but make sure she knows it's a date-date, not a let's-be-friends-date)! If she says no, too bad, but there are other fish in the sea. Don't take it as a loss. After all, you got to talk to a fun person and if you accepted the rejection gracefully, she still thinks you're a nice person.

Accepting rejection is actually a key point to not being a creepy douchebag. Sadly, most men grow up learning that if they just try hard enough, they can have any woman they want. Also, that a woman who says "no" really just is testing how persistent you'll be and wants you to ask again until you've proven your devotion to her.

This attitude is all kinds of unhealthy and horrible.

Yes, asking over and over and over again if a woman wants to go out with you might get someone to date you. But it's not a consensual date. She's not decided to date you because she's attracted to you, quite the contrary. She's agreed to date you because your constant badgering annoys or even scares her and she's chosen what she thinks is the lesser of two evils.

So, don't nag! That's a red flag for everyone. If someone turns you down and you keep asking that person for a date, you're moving down from douchebag to stalker, approaching rapist territory. Do the adult, not-creepy thing and accept that that person doesn't like you back. Anything else is very, very wrong.

With that in mind: You can't bully someone into having consensual sex with you either! Yes, many women (and men) will give in if you ask them for sex enough times – especially if you're in a relationship with that person – or if you say some variation of: "have sex with me or you're a frigid bitch", but this is not because she (or he) wants to have sex with you. No. Just, no.

Then why do people "give in" and have sex when they don't want to?

Because they're being forced to. That's it. That's all there is. Most don't even actually "give in" – the rapist simply ignores the victim's "I don't want to"s. Maybe they're not explicitly saying "no", but that isn't permission!

If someone robs you, do you have to say "No please don't rob me!" for it to count as robbery? Of course you don't have to. As long as you're not giving your money away of your own free will, you're being robbed. It doesn't matter if the robber is some stranger on the street with a gun or your significant other who manipulates you – either way you feel like shit and you've lost money.

Now, apply this to rape.

See, rapists aren't just crazy people who jump people in dark allies. Those are actually rare. Most rapists are neighbors, coworkers, friends and even significant others. Rape is when someone ignores the fact that the other person doesn't want to have sex.

Bottom line is, unless the person you're with gives an enthusiastic yes in reply to the question "do you want to have sex?", everything else means no and you have to respect this. This goes for all people. If your partner doesn't say yes to sex and you still have sex with them, that is rape.

I repeat: rape! It doesn't matter if they've had consensual sex with you prior to this or if they were okay with "just making out". These are excuses rapists tell themselves to not have to think of themselves as rapists.

It's not about saying no, it's about saying yes. Unless you get an enthusiastic "Yes, I want to have sex with you!" or a synonym thereof, your partner is not consenting, they're being raped by you. These two are not the same thing.

Yes, some women still think they have to play "hard to get" to not be labeled a slut (and slut-shaming is a topic for another post I think). They'll say no when they mean yes. But they are very few and far between. So is the chance that this is the sort of woman you've run across really worth taking the risk of molesting and raping someone?

If you think it's a risk worth taking, you should not be let out among people.

Whew, this got long and I'm not sure it's anywhere near complete. But I hope it helps explaining why some ways of talking to others are creepy and some aren't.

I'll end this post on a happy, hopeful note.

A couple of my acquaintance (a man and a woman) met at a club. The man approached the woman and she rebuffed him right away even though she thought he was cute, because she's been raised to expect a man to badger her into a date and because she didn't want to look like a slut. But the man, being a nice, sane person, took the no as a no and left her alone.

Too bad, right? They were obviously interested in each other. Now they'll never see each other again! What a waste.

Wrong. See, since the woman was interested in the man, when he didn't come back she went to talk to him. And now they live together.

So even with failed communication and way too much cultural baggage for both men and women, people still find love – or casual sex, if that's your thing. Either way, good luck and remember: yes means yes.